“The mother of idiots is always pregnant”--Italian proverb
Friday, May 17, 2013
Through Other People's Eyes
I dont mind the sun sometimes the images it shows,
I can taste you on my lips and smell you in my clothes.
Cinnamon and sugary and softly spoken lies,
You never know just how to look through other peoples eyes
How do I see you? (My comment was not intended as bait, just my observation, but since you asked...)
Of course, I've never actually seen you, but my perception of you is that you have a deep need to be heard, have little patience for opposing views, you use your intellect to justify your feelings, and you seem like a very proud man. You also seem regretful or bitter (about what, I don't know). You rarely discuss your feelings directly. You also rarely write original material. You asked if my answer would be honest. It's as direct as poossible.
I'd say that you gave a fair assessment. Bitter was perhaps too kind a word, though. Angry would be more appropriate. I am angry about what has become of my country. It's no longer a country that I am proud to belong to. It's no longer a country that I am proud to serve. And I have little to no tolerance for the forces pushing it in the wrong direction. There have been some beneficial changes to which I may have been opposed to in the past. But I feel that I have learned those lessons, and won't repeat them.
As for pride, I'm afraid it spills over into hubris far too often. But I refuse to be silent any more. "All it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
Sorry, but I'm opposed to being reduced to the zero-rhizomic subterranean subconscious mental level. There's nothing wrong with wanting to live on one of D&G's one thousand intellectual plateaus. :P
That said, you are welcome to toss in your $.02...
I understand that "nationalism" is hardly an ideology worthy of consideration, I'm more of an Articles of Confederation 50-State type American, not a single United State of America, American.
I'm sure the are similar and corresponding regional Indian ideologies.
Heh. I will have to think and think very hard if i am to answer this question, what do i think of you?, with any degree of conviction. It's a tough one, you will agree.
Sorry. But I'm a student of politics. It's what interests me in the various philosophies emergent today... how they are shaped by politics, and how politics shapes them. For instance, I'm not sure if you watched the "link" in the ":P" above at 7:27 am, but at the very end of the second segment, a very cogent explanation of New-Leftist politics emerges. Whereas Foucault was famous for his descriptions of the politics of "power", Deleuze and Guitiari oppose the politics of "power" with the politics of "desire". One is "masculine", the other "feminine". And so I'm mapping my inner feminine to outer masculine to better "know" myself... to better "see myself" through the eyes of the "other". Like a "Supremecist" painting by Malevich. ;)
There are politics of power, and politics of desire. BOTH can be "bitter" (although I suspect that with the politics of desire, it may prove "more so". Obviously, I have little experience practicing the "politics" of attempting to be "desired". Perhaps THAT is the real obstacle that I need to confront and overcome.
...but it is possible to answer a person, in clear words, if one is bitter about something else other than what concerns one's politics, don't you think?
For example, to become a successful politician today, one must have the skill of being able to flatter en masse and make oneself "appealing" to a large segment of the population. In the Olde days, you just needed to wield the biggest stick in the room. ;)
"Welcome, O life! I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race.... Old father, old artificer, stand me now and ever in good stead."
Joyce, "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man".
I suppose it's always about the "name of the father" and "who" just who he was (strict or lenient), isn't it?
Okay, I'm bitter about being trapped in a career that I no longer wish to pursue... for starters. It may have proved a fine prospect for a young man, but I find it rather humiliating as an older one. I have ten more years to go, minimum. I question whether I can keep from exploding before then.
And few would call what I do a "waste of life". I just simply no longer "enjoy" doing it.
...not if one harnesses the energy and transfers it into other pursuits. This... blogging... represents a "transference". Is blogging a waste of time? What isn't?
I am trying to change, Jen. I'm trying to educate myself. Each post represents an attempt to learn a lesson, previously unrecognized. Perhaps, one day, I'll understand HOW I need to change. The way things stand today, I only know "Who". ;)
I posted the Dr. Who quote because it evokes the philosophical exhortation from Delphi to "Know Yourself"... and so if "Who" only knows himself, as Sun Tzu says, he will "win many battles"... but when he also knows his "enemy" as well, he will become "undefeatable". ;)
You personalize things too much, nicrap! Jen doesn't even know the real me. If she loves anything, its' an ideal... one of "difference" with her daimon.
There's a Zizek YouTube about a man with a wife and a mistress, who dreams of his wife dying, and life with the mistress. But when the wife actually dies, he loses the mistress, too. For all along, he was really in love with the ideal of escaping his current "rut".
Now you are nit-picking, FJ. Of course, she loves an ideal. They all do. But, as the Ex-Secretary Cinton so memorably said: What difference does that make? :p
No, the "desire" of the daimon, is the "desire" of the "other", of the SuperEgo. In other words, we don't want what WE individually want, we want what the "other" wants. Ultimately, its a desire for "recognition" from the other, for what one IS.
And I think what Jen is looking for. Recognition. And I see her as a creative and resourceful individual, who will go far, the more she experiments with her medium of photography, and applies what she learns. She's a very talented photographer.
...and please, Jen, don't take this conversation as a criticism or critique. It is demeaning to be talked about in the third person, and that is the last thing that I want to do.
Hey. I am sorry. I didn't mean any harm but i guess i may have done some. Please forgive me both of you. And let this not come between yourselves. I am a really a fool of first order, aways causing mischief.
And it is your fault, too. Why do you always have to ask such uncomfortable questions which one doesn't know the answer to? :)
I think we're all a couple of troublemakers who enjoy asking uncomfortable questions. I do so because in trying to answer them, I learn a little bit about myself each time. I first tend to blurt out the answer I have been given and have learned from others, and then try and look to see if it "rings true" or not. If not, I go looking for a new explanatory theory.
For example above, the Superego representing the "desire of the other" seeking recognition is all Lacanian through the filter of Zizek. I don't know if its' "entirely" true, but there is, IMO, something "there" there.
AND btw - the graduation was "nice". My daughter had been sick to her stomach all Saturday and we almost didn't go... but fortunately, she was much recovered when the actual moment came. The gave "honorary" Doctorates to two celebrities, Walter Pincus of the Washington Post and Greta Van Sustern, a former Georgetown Law graduate, who also served as Commencement Speaker.
Now, if before being lead down the rabbit hole by nicrap, I had been able to make a statement as to how "Jen" is seen, I see her as a fellow enquiring mind, searching for answers. She is tenacious and not one to be easily lead down a garden path She is also not so cocky as to believe that she has all the answers (like I do). But I also believe that until she "does" get cocky and put forward responses, especially "wrong" ones, she isn't going to learn as much as she would, otherwise. I suppose I think that you are "too" sensitive to other people's feelings and needs... which isn't a "bad" thing for a physical therapist... but probably IS a bad thing for someone who would "prescribe" a particular "course" of physical therapy.
As for nicrap, the man is too smart for his own good. He see's openings, and goes for throats. He tries to compensate for this be being "overly polite" when confronted, but the "glee" is far to apparent. "Acta non Verba". Of course, I think he rationalizes away his own "inactivity" far too easily... (vis a vis his own writing). An inner "fear" of criticism, perhaps... but an impediment to growth. :P
and..." Please. We are fiction machines." The "whole" and "undivided" truth is NEVER presented. We all "hold back" to avoid damaging established social relations. It's why we seldom can know how we are perceived through "other eyes." We can only catch "peripheral glimpses" of "the gaze".
The politics of "power" is different from the politics of "desire" in the sense that the powerful don't normally give a f*ck about how their "orders" will make their followers "feels. Obedience is mandatory, else pain WILL be dispensed. How to best "effect" that obedience, through "power plays" or "desire plays"... therin lies ALL the difference in "social relations".
That we are, FJ. The 'whole' 'undivided' truth has not been my concern, conviction has. Actually there was more to my comment above, but i deleted it at the last moment. It was addressed to Jen, perhaps i should give it anyway. It might explain my POV more cealrly. :)
Heh. No, the apology was sincere. When i made that remark about you, i had a dim idea of the mischief it might cause; but i still gave in to the temptation – it was just too much, i suppose. Heh. There was some ‘provocation’ as well, i guess, what i referred to as ‘uncomfortable questions...’
Thing is i like to be 'sincere' in my answers, that’s the only quality i look for in them. But to some questions there are no easy answers or no answers at all [what i mean by uncomfortable questions.] So you become playful. Your question was one of them [nor was it the first. But that’s not important.] Perhaps, had i really given it a thought, i would have been able to answer it with some CONVICTION – i said as much much to FJ whn he asked me to add my $.02 – would i have still made that remark about you? I don’t know. Perhaps i would have, had i really thought it an important part of you. But, do know, that in that case i would not have minded the mischief. :)
I think that the third post of this thread foreshadows the direction of my convictions. The rest was all trying to maintain a status quo ante social relationship... half truths w/half convictions.
If you want to hear the truth from someone, best tap their phone and eavesdrop into the talking that goes on behind your back. And even THAT will be skewed towards the particular interests of the parties in conversation.
I meant that we are all narcisists. And yes, we lie to ourselves all the time. The last person that we are likely to hurt, unless we are melancholic (from dependency), is ourselves.
Hehe. Maybe they do. Maybe they do. But you are alive nonetheless. More so, you can't go out the way you came in (to the world). You must add to something. :)
Now i should leave you to your reading while i do some of my own. take care.
Hmm. Anyway, i was reading the other day on someone else's blog about how somehow 'the higher purpose' is missing from today's art [I think you too had commented there]. Would you say "waing for godot' is an exampe of it ... or not?
Heh. There she goes. Another one of her 'unomfortable questions'. No, Jen, I am not. I am just trying to get it all cleared up in my own head...with your help, you may say. :)
Okay, can i ask just one more question? I will let it then if you like.
Art can be destructive, life-taking. Or it can affirm life.
Would you then say that 'affirming life' is what art should aspire for ... is its true and highest purpose? And does then Waiting for Godot affirm life?
Hmmm...i don't think it's for me to say what arts true highest purpose should be.
I know that i have created some very....depressing, albeit cathartic, art. However, i dont display those things that are so deeply personal. I don't even like to show them..
I will say that what enriches my life tends to be life affirming.
The parents seem to have all the 'good' conversations after the children go to bed...
:(
And waiting for Godot doesn't, IMO have a "higher" purpose, unless destroying existing "higher purposes" in order to create a blank slate upon which a "new" (yet undisclosed) "higher purpose" can then be written IS a higher purpose.
Lucky, we barely knew ye.
Minimalism helps to "disassociate" the viewer, detach him from his old symbolic "territory" and re-attach him to a new symbolic territory.
Very Rhizomic (Deleuze and Guatarri, "A Thousand Plateuas")
I read an interesting observation that "Godot" was supposed to represent "Compassion" for some... and it is the "certain something" that never arrives.
Almost sounds like a Christian "second coming"... if you ask me.
Where is our Messiah?
IMO... Lucky is Labour... Pozzo is Capital. But then, there I go getting all "political" again. ;)
Not unless you ask them. ;-)
ReplyDeleteOkay, I'll bite. What sayest you?
ReplyDelete...and do you think that what they reply is honestly what they see?
ReplyDeleteHow do I see you? (My comment was not intended as bait, just my observation, but since you asked...)
ReplyDeleteOf course, I've never actually seen you, but my perception of you is that you have a deep need to be heard, have little patience for opposing views, you use your intellect to justify your feelings, and you seem like a very proud man. You also seem regretful or bitter (about what, I don't know). You rarely discuss your feelings directly. You also rarely write original material. You asked if my answer would be honest. It's as direct as poossible.
But I think there are very few people I would bother to ask.
ReplyDeleteI've heard, "what others think of me is none of my business".
I'd like to consistently believe that.
I'd say that you gave a fair assessment. Bitter was perhaps too kind a word, though. Angry would be more appropriate. I am angry about what has become of my country. It's no longer a country that I am proud to belong to. It's no longer a country that I am proud to serve. And I have little to no tolerance for the forces pushing it in the wrong direction. There have been some beneficial changes to which I may have been opposed to in the past. But I feel that I have learned those lessons, and won't repeat them.
ReplyDeleteAs for pride, I'm afraid it spills over into hubris far too often. But I refuse to be silent any more. "All it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
ReplyDeleteSorry, but I'm opposed to being reduced to the zero-rhizomic subterranean subconscious mental level. There's nothing wrong with wanting to live on one of D&G's one thousand intellectual plateaus. :P
ReplyDeleteOoops. I deleted your comment trying to delete my f-d up links.
ReplyDeleteNicrap said something to the effect, "Interesting discussion. Heh."
That said, you are welcome to toss in your $.02...
ReplyDeleteI understand that "nationalism" is hardly an ideology worthy of consideration, I'm more of an Articles of Confederation 50-State type American, not a single United State of America, American.
I'm sure the are similar and corresponding regional Indian ideologies.
Why does it always go back to politics?
ReplyDeleteHeh. I will have to think and think very hard if i am to answer this question, what do i think of you?, with any degree of conviction. It's a tough one, you will agree.
ReplyDeleteSorry. But I'm a student of politics. It's what interests me in the various philosophies emergent today... how they are shaped by politics, and how politics shapes them. For instance, I'm not sure if you watched the "link" in the ":P" above at 7:27 am, but at the very end of the second segment, a very cogent explanation of New-Leftist politics emerges. Whereas Foucault was famous for his descriptions of the politics of "power", Deleuze and Guitiari oppose the politics of "power" with the politics of "desire". One is "masculine", the other "feminine". And so I'm mapping my inner feminine to outer masculine to better "know" myself... to better "see myself" through the eyes of the "other". Like a "Supremecist" painting by Malevich. ;)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete...yes, even i was thinking that Jen wasn't referring to your politics when she said 'bitter'.
ReplyDeleteGo ahead and be honest. I know that mine are but delusions of self-importance. Besides, it'll give you a chance to develop another fragment. ;)
ReplyDeleteThere are politics of power, and politics of desire. BOTH can be "bitter" (although I suspect that with the politics of desire, it may prove "more so". Obviously, I have little experience practicing the "politics" of attempting to be "desired". Perhaps THAT is the real obstacle that I need to confront and overcome.
ReplyDelete...but it is possible to answer a person, in clear words, if one is bitter about something else other than what concerns one's politics, don't you think?
ReplyDeleteFor example, to become a successful politician today, one must have the skill of being able to flatter en masse and make oneself "appealing" to a large segment of the population. In the Olde days, you just needed to wield the biggest stick in the room. ;)
ReplyDeleteAh, am I bitter about other things?
ReplyDeleteSure.
But it's petty to complain about woulda- shoulda- coulda's. At least, I think it is.
Besides, I have TWO dogs to kick. That's plenty. ;)
ReplyDeleteLol. Now i know. You are just like that crafty old man: Dedalus. I would like to see Jen finding her way through this Labyrinth. ;)
ReplyDeleteI have TWO dogs to kick. That's plenty.
ReplyDeleteOld father, old artificer, stand me now and ever in good stead.
;)
ReplyDeleteWhat are you bitter about, fj?
ReplyDeleteNicrap, are you going to tell fj how you see him? I'd like to know if it's similar to my image.
ReplyDeleteIf it's petty to complain, is it not a waste of life to be bitter?
ReplyDelete"Welcome, O life! I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race.... Old father, old artificer, stand me now and ever in good stead."
ReplyDeleteJoyce, "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man".
I suppose it's always about the "name of the father" and "who" just who he was (strict or lenient), isn't it?
Okay, I'm bitter about being trapped in a career that I no longer wish to pursue... for starters. It may have proved a fine prospect for a young man, but I find it rather humiliating as an older one. I have ten more years to go, minimum. I question whether I can keep from exploding before then.
ReplyDeleteAnd few would call what I do a "waste of life". I just simply no longer "enjoy" doing it.
Yes, perhaps, to the extent that one must kill him first in order to come to his own.
ReplyDelete...a man first attains his youth when he tramples the viper, the crawling century that poisons all nature in the bud.
He is like the Old Man of the Sea, Jen. Slipper like an eel. ;)
I didn't mean to imply that your career was a waste, rather being bitter is a waste of energy.
ReplyDeleteOkay, guys. Time for me to hit the sack. Good night. You two enjoy. :)
ReplyDelete...not if one harnesses the energy and transfers it into other pursuits. This... blogging... represents a "transference". Is blogging a waste of time? What isn't?
ReplyDeleteThe smell of sulfer hasn't quite diminished yet... good night nicrap! ;)
ReplyDeleteHe who strives on and lives to strive/ Can earn redemption still. :)
ReplyDeleteNight night, my friends. :)
ReplyDeleteIt's only a waste of energy if you don't grow, or change through it.
ReplyDeleteGoodnight nicrap.
ReplyDeleteFj, i was surprised at your direct answer to my question.
ReplyDeleteI am trying to change, Jen. I'm trying to educate myself. Each post represents an attempt to learn a lesson, previously unrecognized. Perhaps, one day, I'll understand HOW I need to change. The way things stand today, I only know "Who". ;)
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you fj.
ReplyDeleteBtw, I am a huge Dr. Who fan. :-)
Thanks. Most people just dismiss me as a kook. :)
ReplyDelete...and my kids all love Dr. Who... but I'm more of a "Sherlock" fan. Must be my age.
I posted the Dr. Who quote because it evokes the philosophical exhortation from Delphi to "Know Yourself"... and so if "Who" only knows himself, as Sun Tzu says, he will "win many battles"... but when he also knows his "enemy" as well, he will become "undefeatable". ;)
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, I suppose I'd best return to tending my machines... the lawn needs mowing before the rain gets here. ;)
ReplyDeleteHave a great afternoon!
The new BBC version of Sherlock is amazing!
ReplyDeleteI'm off to see a patient. You have a good one, too. :)
Nicrap, were you wanting me to ask you and fj how i am seen?
ReplyDeleteGo for it! :-)
heh. Was i? But no matter. It's no mystery. You are in love with FJ. And a worthy man, too. :p :)
ReplyDeleteYou personalize things too much, nicrap! Jen doesn't even know the real me. If she loves anything, its' an ideal... one of "difference" with her daimon.
ReplyDeleteThere's a Zizek YouTube about a man with a wife and a mistress, who dreams of his wife dying, and life with the mistress. But when the wife actually dies, he loses the mistress, too. For all along, he was really in love with the ideal of escaping his current "rut".
I gotta go get some coffee with a friend. I'll be back in about and hour or two...
ReplyDeleteNow you are nit-picking, FJ. Of course, she loves an ideal. They all do. But, as the Ex-Secretary Cinton so memorably said: What difference does that make? :p
ReplyDeleteIn the scheme of things, we men are but incidentals. :)
ReplyDeleteNo, the "desire" of the daimon, is the "desire" of the "other", of the SuperEgo. In other words, we don't want what WE individually want, we want what the "other" wants. Ultimately, its a desire for "recognition" from the other, for what one IS.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think what Jen is looking for. Recognition. And I see her as a creative and resourceful individual, who will go far, the more she experiments with her medium of photography, and applies what she learns. She's a very talented photographer.
And now I'm off again. My daughter graduates from Georgetown Law this afternoon. Ciao.
ReplyDelete...and please, Jen, don't take this conversation as a criticism or critique. It is demeaning to be talked about in the third person, and that is the last thing that I want to do.
ReplyDeleteNicrap likes to stir pots.
...and can't distinguish a universal from a specific!
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteActually, i am in love with my husband. Truly. For the first time in years.
ReplyDeleteFj is interesting to me because we have some experiences in common, more than even he knows.
Now, let me go comb my hair. It's messy on top from being patted too much.
hehe. Now let's talk about me. :p
ReplyDeleteAnd congratulations FJ. You must be a very proud father today.
ReplyDeleteEasy. You are in love with fj.
ReplyDeleteNicrap, do you think you know women? Understand them?
ReplyDeleteI don't knw, Jen. Why do you ask?
ReplyDeleteThis was depressing...
ReplyDeleteHey. I am sorry. I didn't mean any harm but i guess i may have done some. Please forgive me both of you. And let this not come between yourselves. I am a really a fool of first order, aways causing mischief.
ReplyDeleteAnd it is your fault, too. Why do you always have to ask such uncomfortable questions which one doesn't know the answer to? :)
I think we're all a couple of troublemakers who enjoy asking uncomfortable questions. I do so because in trying to answer them, I learn a little bit about myself each time. I first tend to blurt out the answer I have been given and have learned from others, and then try and look to see if it "rings true" or not. If not, I go looking for a new explanatory theory.
ReplyDeleteFor example above, the Superego representing the "desire of the other" seeking recognition is all Lacanian through the filter of Zizek. I don't know if its' "entirely" true, but there is, IMO, something "there" there.
AND btw - the graduation was "nice". My daughter had been sick to her stomach all Saturday and we almost didn't go... but fortunately, she was much recovered when the actual moment came. The gave "honorary" Doctorates to two celebrities, Walter Pincus of the Washington Post and Greta Van Sustern, a former Georgetown Law graduate, who also served as Commencement Speaker.
Now, if before being lead down the rabbit hole by nicrap, I had been able to make a statement as to how "Jen" is seen, I see her as a fellow enquiring mind, searching for answers. She is tenacious and not one to be easily lead down a garden path She is also not so cocky as to believe that she has all the answers (like I do). But I also believe that until she "does" get cocky and put forward responses, especially "wrong" ones, she isn't going to learn as much as she would, otherwise. I suppose I think that you are "too" sensitive to other people's feelings and needs... which isn't a "bad" thing for a physical therapist... but probably IS a bad thing for someone who would "prescribe" a particular "course" of physical therapy.
ReplyDeleteAs for nicrap, the man is too smart for his own good. He see's openings, and goes for throats. He tries to compensate for this be being "overly polite" when confronted, but the "glee" is far to apparent. "Acta non Verba". Of course, I think he rationalizes away his own "inactivity" far too easily... (vis a vis his own writing). An inner "fear" of criticism, perhaps... but an impediment to growth. :P
Congratulatiosn, FJ.
ReplyDeleteNo, the apology was sincere. :)
Thanks. :)
ReplyDeleteand..." Please. We are fiction machines." The "whole" and "undivided" truth is NEVER presented. We all "hold back" to avoid damaging established social relations. It's why we seldom can know how we are perceived through "other eyes." We can only catch "peripheral glimpses" of "the gaze".
The politics of "power" is different from the politics of "desire" in the sense that the powerful don't normally give a f*ck about how their "orders" will make their followers "feels. Obedience is mandatory, else pain WILL be dispensed. How to best "effect" that obedience, through "power plays" or "desire plays"... therin lies ALL the difference in "social relations".
ReplyDelete...and of "truths" being advanced or retarded.
ReplyDeleteFor the politics of "power" play upon fear of "superior strength", NOT "desire."
ReplyDeletePlease. We are fiction machines.
ReplyDeleteThat we are, FJ. The 'whole' 'undivided' truth has not been my concern, conviction has. Actually there was more to my comment above, but i deleted it at the last moment. It was addressed to Jen, perhaps i should give it anyway. It might explain my POV more cealrly. :)
Heh. No, the apology was sincere. When i made that remark about you, i had a dim idea of the mischief it might cause; but i still gave in to the temptation – it was just too much, i suppose. Heh. There was some ‘provocation’ as well, i guess, what i referred to as ‘uncomfortable questions...’
Thing is i like to be 'sincere' in my answers, that’s the only quality i look for in them. But to some questions there are no easy answers or no answers at all [what i mean by uncomfortable questions.] So you become playful. Your question was one of them [nor was it the first. But that’s not important.] Perhaps, had i really given it a thought, i would have been able to answer it with some CONVICTION – i said as much much to FJ whn he asked me to add my $.02 – would i have still made that remark about you? I don’t know. Perhaps i would have, had i really thought it an important part of you. But, do know, that in that case i would not have minded the mischief.
:)
In other words, "apology accepted." ;)
ReplyDeleteI think that the third post of this thread foreshadows the direction of my convictions. The rest was all trying to maintain a status quo ante social relationship... half truths w/half convictions.
ReplyDeleteall...Cinnamon and sugary and softly spoken lies,
ReplyDeleteHehe. Now let Jen accept it and i can sleep easy. :)
ReplyDeleteGo to bed nicrap... and dream of sincere women!
ReplyDelete... oh wait, I forgot. "Women of strong convictions". ;)
ReplyDeleteHeh. I dream of spies and secret agents. I really do. :)
ReplyDeleteIf you want to hear the truth from someone, best tap their phone and eavesdrop into the talking that goes on behind your back. And even THAT will be skewed towards the particular interests of the parties in conversation.
ReplyDelete"Spies and secret agents..." I hope it's a new piece you're working on, and not some paranoiac critical vision developing.
ReplyDeleteI've had them. They're no fun.
Note to Jen: I'd be lying if I didn't admit to occassionaly fantasizing about you. I am a guy. It's what we "do".
ReplyDeleteIf you want to hear the truth from someone, best tap their phone...
ReplyDeleteWho knows what you might here? Better no curiosity than impertinent curiosity. ;)
ps - Nicrap has too. :)
ReplyDeleteNow i hit the sack, FJ. Say my best to Jen when you hear from her. Night! :)
ReplyDeleteHave you read Machiavelli's "The Mandrake" and/or "Clizia"? Works from the world's first semi-honest "power" politician...
ReplyDeleteBut then, these were only his "letters of introduction". ;)
I will, if I do.
ReplyDeleteNight.
ps - Nicrap has too.
ReplyDeleteChicken!
;)
ReplyDeleteBock, Bock BWAAAAAK! Yourself! ;)
ReplyDeleteHehe. Night. :)
ReplyDelete"what others think of me is simply none of my business"
ReplyDelete:-)
Fj, keep your sugar for yourself. I'm allergic. :p
ReplyDeleteAplogy, nicrap?
None needed. You said what came to your mind.
The whole conversation was depressing to me because....it just was. You crazy-makers wouldn't understand.
Nicrap sends his regards.
ReplyDelete...and believe me when I say, "I do." We ALL do.
(I meant the sugar part, in case it wasn't clear. The rest, I haven't got a clue)
ReplyDeleteYou keep the sugar (little sweet lies) to yourself?
ReplyDeleteI thought you said that most of your comments were half-truths?
You fantasize?
Are we boxing? Kickboxing? Lol
I meant that we are all narcisists. And yes, we lie to ourselves all the time. The last person that we are likely to hurt, unless we are melancholic (from dependency), is ourselves.
ReplyDeleteWe are not all narcissists.
ReplyDeleteAs for how I might fantasize... I'll leave it to you to imagine... :O
ReplyDelete:P
ReplyDeleteI really like this artist.
ReplyDeleteYou might like this song, words and images...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpqs8XbdIM&sns=em
All well that ends well. Now say 'cheese' everyone. ;)
ReplyDeleteIt is absurd, that's for sure.
ReplyDeleteAbsurd? I am not sure if i would say that. :)
ReplyDeleteWhat would you say?
ReplyDeleteI would say 'lies and half truths.' :)
ReplyDelete...and some mischief. heh.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of absurd, i am reading Waiting For Godot.
ReplyDeleteAh. And how do you find it?
ReplyDeleteLiking it i mean.
ReplyDeleteIt feels familiar.
ReplyDeleteThey give birth astride a grave...
ReplyDeleteHehe. Maybe they do. Maybe they do. But you are alive nonetheless. More so, you can't go out the way you came in (to the world). You must add to something. :)
ReplyDeleteNow i should leave you to your reading while i do some of my own. take care.
add up*
ReplyDeleteYou two are mischief makers!
ReplyDeleteIn the immortal words of Johnny Cash, "I walk the line".
How boring, huh?
I am Pagan and half my gods are mischief makers. What excuse do you two have? :p :p
ReplyDelete...do we need excuses?
ReplyDelete...or merely new hats?
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning was the hat... ;)
ReplyDelete...not a hatter?
ReplyDeleteIs there a tree anywhere around here?
I sure wish I were Lucky... or at a minimum, a little more forgetful.
Now where did I put my boots?
Clever girl. ;)
I don't know, but I bet they're muddy. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI missed the Godot conversation. Been under a tornado watch today.
ReplyDeletei didn't get your last comment. What Godot conversation you mean?
ReplyDeleteI just meant that i wasn't able to comment when you and fj were discussing Waiting For Godot.
ReplyDeleteOh. Have you finished it then? (We were just fooling around, btw?) :)
ReplyDeleteno question mark after 'btw'.. heh.
ReplyDeleteYes, i finished it last night.
ReplyDeleteGreat! Any thoughts while it's still fresh?
ReplyDelete:-)
ReplyDeleteWell, i had read a few critiques ahead of time, so that affected my reading.
I'm not sure what to think. My feeling about it was...hopelessness.
Absurdity is a sore topic for me.
ReplyDeleteLife, more often than not, is truly absurd.
it's difficult to see it as a literary concept.
But the 'tramps' were still alive when they were last heard, weren't they, hoping to meet 'tomorrow'... there is no 'hoplessness', only absurdity.
ReplyDeleteErratum: There is no 'hopelessness' there*, only absurdity.
ReplyDeleteLife is many things, Jen. :)
I see it as hopeless. Godot is obviously not coming...ever.
ReplyDeleteVladimir and Estragon had hope, but I didn't.
It doesn't depress me.
ReplyDeleteMostly it was nonsense....mostly.
I saw several things that rang true, though.
Absurd.
ReplyDeleteSeveral children were killed in a tornado a few hours from me.
Hmm. Anyway, i was reading the other day on someone else's blog about how somehow 'the higher purpose' is missing from today's art [I think you too had commented there]. Would you say "waing for godot' is an exampe of it ... or not?
ReplyDeleteI think it is called Freethinker's blog.
ReplyDeleteSeveral children were killed in a tornado a few hours from me.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry to hear that. :(
I think the play has higher purpose.
ReplyDeleteI can give sunday school answers about higher purposes, but i am not struck by this play like i hoped i would be.
It's inconceivable, the grief.
ReplyDeleteI think my brain and soul are moving away from grief.
I won't deny it, but I don't invite it l i ke i used to.
Hmmm, my comment was lost.
ReplyDeleteI said:
I think the play has higher purpose.
I can give sunday school answers about higher purposes, but i am not struck by this play like i hoped i would be.
It's inconceivable, the grief.
ReplyDeleteI think my brain and soul are moving away from grief.
I won't deny it, but I don't invite it l i ke i used to.
What did this play do for you?
ReplyDeleteWhat does it mean to you?
Someone told me recently that he didn't "get" my photography, but i know for certain that it has a higher purpose. :-)
ReplyDeleteheh. I would like to hear the 'sunday school version' first. :)
ReplyDeleteIs there a place where i can see some of your photography? Though i am 'visually challenged', i think. :)
ReplyDeleteSunday school answers are boring!
ReplyDeletewhen i don't feel passionate about a work, i don't assume it's worthless. I just don't understand it.
So, if Waiting For Godot has a higher purpose for some people (enriches their lives), but doesn't have the same effect on me, why would i ponder it?
Hmm. Yes, why? :)
ReplyDeleteBut you do believe that art is good or bad?
I believe it's up to the viewer.
ReplyDeleteArt can be destructive, life-taking. Or it can affirm life.
Of course, things are never really either / or.
I would rather gaze at art that i don't understand than no art at all.
Nicrap...you have a very analytical tone.
Are you quizzing me?
And why don't you have a blog?
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so anonymous?
Heh. There she goes. Another one of her 'unomfortable questions'. No, Jen, I am not. I am just trying to get it all cleared up in my own head...with your help, you may say. :)
ReplyDeleteOkay, can i ask just one more question? I will let it then if you like.
let it rest*
ReplyDeleteI don't have a blog? What are you talking about? Haven't you visited it before? I thought you had.
ReplyDeleteSure, what's your question?
ReplyDeleteWhoa!!! For a minute i forgot about your blog!
ReplyDeleteHeh. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteArt can be destructive, life-taking. Or it can affirm life.
Would you then say that 'affirming life' is what art should aspire for ... is its true and highest purpose? And does then Waiting for Godot affirm life?
Whoa! That hurts. :p
ReplyDeleteDon't take it personally. I forget all good things, and remember the bad. :p
ReplyDeletehehe. You are sweet. :)
ReplyDeleteHmmm...i don't think it's for me to say what arts true highest purpose should be.
ReplyDeleteI know that i have created some very....depressing, albeit cathartic, art. However, i dont display those things that are so deeply personal. I don't even like to show them..
I will say that what enriches my life tends to be life affirming.
But did you find Godot life affirming?
ReplyDeleteI suppose Waiting For Godot does affirm life.
ReplyDeleteDidi and Gogo love one another.
They feel compassion (at times) for Lucky.
Most of all...They simply keep going.
Did i personally find it life affirming??
ReplyDeleteNow that is a tough question.
I did. It felt real. Too real.
They contemplated suicide but chose not to.
Maybe not as much life affirming as death negating. ??? I think there must be a better word...
ReplyDeleteGoodnight nicrap!
ReplyDelete'Chose'? They chose nothing. They were meaning to commit it 'tomorrow' - 'unless Godot comes'.
ReplyDeleteGood night Jen. :)
ReplyDeleteSee, i forgot that.
ReplyDeleteThey won't do it , though.
They'll keep waiting. Just by deciding to wait for Godot they choose life.
Okay. Your turn.
Give me your take on it
I will read it tomorrow, my eyes need sleep. :-)
The parents seem to have all the 'good' conversations after the children go to bed...
ReplyDelete:(
And waiting for Godot doesn't, IMO have a "higher" purpose, unless destroying existing "higher purposes" in order to create a blank slate upon which a "new" (yet undisclosed) "higher purpose" can then be written IS a higher purpose.
Lucky, we barely knew ye.
Minimalism helps to "disassociate" the viewer, detach him from his old symbolic "territory" and re-attach him to a new symbolic territory.
Very Rhizomic (Deleuze and Guatarri, "A Thousand Plateuas")
Hard to say, Jen. It is almost as though i no longer know it ... something from a previous life that i have now forgotten. :)
ReplyDeleteThe parents seem to have all the 'good' conversations after the children go to bed...
ReplyDelete...and the children today are voyeurs after the act. ;)
:)
ReplyDeleteI read an interesting observation that "Godot" was supposed to represent "Compassion" for some... and it is the "certain something" that never arrives.
ReplyDeleteAlmost sounds like a Christian "second coming"... if you ask me.
Where is our Messiah?
IMO... Lucky is Labour... Pozzo is Capital. But then, there I go getting all "political" again. ;)
I gotta get another hat...
...or a new "necktie".
ReplyDeleteMinimalism... the opposite of Opera... of an AIDA!
ReplyDelete...or I should say.... AIDA! ;)
ReplyDelete